Recent Posts
A/2hoJ
No.125428
>>125424(OP)
i literally wrote whole ass essay before it got nuked
>>125402
> Our results reject the commonly held association7 between horseback riding and the massive expansion of Yamnaya steppe pastoralists into Europe around 3000 bc8,9 driving the spread of Indo-European languages10.
Literally read the article you are sharing saaar. The stated so called 'steppe' migration has happened almost 500 to 1000 years earlier than the domestication or development of the said spoke wheels etc.
I am quoting people who are better than me at explaining, here's from the previous linked post which uses the latest research to state the options
>Librado et al confirmed that DOM2 horses originated around 2200-2000 BC in North Caucasus and were unrelated to Yamnaya migrations. DOM2 horses are downstream of Yamnaya migrations. These horses show up in Anatolia soon after and subsequently entire near east.
>These regions are well connected to Iranian plateau, Central Asia and South Asia through trade/proximity and horses are likely to arrive through trade than through Yamnaya related populations.
>Before the spread of DOM2 horses, various regional equid populations existed across Eurasia.
Read the last two quotes.
>>125402
>Sinauli carts were solid wheel ox crawn carts, not chariots. The burial evidence lacks horse remains or steppe syle chariot tech. as of now we have no aDNA has been published for these burials.
>ox wheel carts
literally untrue, based on papers it can be very well equids etc. and there's already paper on that.
ugra has written good thread on the same thing. It had proper copper frame etc.
Anyway here's the last reply.
A/2hoJ
No.125429
>>125428
This is about horse development and possible trade and migration.
Now coming to what is actual the cause of the vedic aryan centers in ivc period, based on latest information. Now regarding 'aryan' culture in india
>In South Asia, there are several ancient cultures which are candidates for Vedic peoples, including the Painted Grey Ware culture, Cemetery H culture, Ochre Coloured Pottery-Copper Hoard culture, the Mature or Late Harappan phase of the Indus Valley Civilization, and other cultures. However, identifying which of these aligns specifically with Vedic culture remains uncertain. With the presence of Royal burial, ritual affinity to Vedic rituals, presence of Proto-Chariots, Copper swords, and other artifacts at Sinauli site makes Ochre Coloured Pottery-Copper Hoard culture a strong candidate for Vedic culture. While it differs from the Indus Valley Civilization, it also shares some overlaps.
> It seems likely that multiple Indo-Aryan cultures emerged in South Asia, descending from the earlier Mehrgarh phase II culture, with Vedic culture being one among them.
Summary here is that later migration of any sorts were not the cause of major cultural of linguistic changes.
Even the swat valley samples were female mediated.
KThXI/
No.125430
>>125428
imagine getting cucked by your own sandascleaner and paying 500 mahatma gandu for it 
1/5zAn
No.125443
>>125442
When are you planning to leave?
uvAX71
No.125445
Yar dayush ek baat bata, i dont really understand all this mumbo jumbo, so can u tell in layman terms?
1. Did whites come from outside and invade india
2. Did indians go outside and invade europe
3. Did a central asian group invade both europe and india
Which one is it
WTxO6+
No.125451
>>125428
firstly the paper you cited does not disprove the Steppe origin of Indo european languages. What it shows is that horseback riding may not have been the initial driver of Yamnaya expansion this doesnt contradict the fact that Steppe_MLBA ancestry and R1a Z93 lineages still spread into South Asia during the 2nd millennium BCE.
DOM2 horses = 2200 BCE
Sintashta = 2100 to 2000 BCE
Aryan migration into South Asia = 1800 to 1500 BCE
The Sinauli carts are not true chariots in the Steppe sense. most consensus, including the ASI report and the Bhardwaj 2018, clearly states that they are solid disk wheeled vehicles, typical of ox drawn carts. No spoke wheels, horse bones, or yoke designs indicative of high speed, horse drawn chariots were found.
Even if equids were used, they are not DOM2 type horses the only equids in use in pre vedic india were onagers or donkeys, not the fast war horses domesticated on the Steppe. DOM2 horses appear later (2200 BCE) and are first associated with the Sintashta Andronovo complex.
>ugra
his threads are not peer reviewed sources and misinterpret archaeological nuance. Without aDNA, attributing any language or population to Sinauli is premature. Until such data emerges, the Steppe origin of Indo Aryan culture remains best supported.
The Southern Arc model (reddit post you shared) is mostly trying to explain Anatolian divergence, not the spread of Indo european into South Asia. Most genetic, linguistic, and archaeological data together still best support a Steppe origin for Indo European languages.
yW2l/l
No.125452
>>125445
>Which one is it
Nomads from europe and Iranians mingled with each other and then came to india. Most probable
WTxO6+
No.125459
>>125429
again there is noo credible evidence linking the OCP–CH culture directly to Vedic Indo Aryans. The OCP predates the full spread of Steppe_MLBA ancestry and lacks definitive markers of Indo-Aryan identity, such as Vedic language inscriptions, horse based chariotry with spoked wheels, or Steppe R1a-Z93 male lineages.
even Swat Valley aDNA samples clearly show a gradual influx of Steppe_MLBA ancestry, with increasing R1a-Z93 male lineages clearly showing a male mediated Indo Aryan migration. Female gene flow occurred but that still doesnt negate the directional ancestry pattern or cultural impact.
>harapan origin
purely speculative
uvAX71
No.125460
>>125452
Accha. Makes sense since i dont really belive that tamil lund looking people went outside india and somehow evolved into eva vlaardingerbroek in sum thousand years
KThXI/
No.125473
tamilians may not be descendants of africans but are they descendants of aboriginals?
A/2hoJ
No.125478
>>125445
>1. Did whites come from outside and invade india
No, white term itself is a meme. Their ancestry is formed when literally neolithic iranian / chg moved northern areas, mixed with local populace in lower volga region to form steppe groups, same group goes to pillage in western european and eastern europe. I will leave upto you to choose on what is considered 'white'. Steppe != white however. Neolithic iranians farmers were literally brown but with caucasian features.
The vedic culture as mentioned earlier it pretty much result of when neolithic iranians moved towards sindhu saraswati region and eventual formation of the vedic culture.
I believe the retardation about steppe kanging = white etc. is probably due to the fact that nw region of india and many rulling classes during Gupta empire etc. resulted in absorption of groups like sakas etc. which is reflected in those people. Jats are another example.
>2. Did indians go outside and invade europe
Indians have major chunk of Neolithic Iranian ancestry, these were guys who were spanning from Mediterranean region to entire subcont to upper afghanistan to even above region mixing with every group.
The PIE is located around Mesopotamia.
In fact CHG/Iran_n ancestry peaks among Indian.
>3. Did a central asian group invade both europe and india
Central asian groups, there's BMAC which was actually ig extension of iranic influence - these people moved north and even mixed with the steppe groups - which is the region why we see R1b ancestry too. These are result of various groups mixing over time.
A/2hoJ
No.125480
>>125459
>again there is noo credible evidence linking the OCP–CH culture directly to Vedic Indo Aryans. The OCP predates the full spread of Steppe_MLBA ancestry and lacks definitive markers of Indo-Aryan identity, such as Vedic language inscriptions, horse based chariotry with spoked wheels, or Steppe R1a-Z93 male lineages.
>steppe
once again you are repeating outdated kurgan model saaar. Please refer to the https://www.reddit.com/user/MostZealousideal1729/comments/1gj6h0f/protoindoeuropean_homeland_and_migrations_based/ summary doc here.
>even Swat Valley aDNA samples clearly show a gradual influx of Steppe_MLBA ancestry, with increasing R1a-Z93 male lineages clearly showing a male mediated Indo Aryan migration.
>Female gene flow occurred but that still doesnt negate the directional ancestry pattern or cultural impact.
You probably didn't even read the paper. Only ancestry which has indian ancestry is from 500BCE so blaady late. Rest are female mediated. There's ample explanation on that but once again you are proposing kurgan model which is outdated and scant.
!NprOfiCpqxdjYh+
TBF6ja
No.125483
>>125424(OP)
Idk why u pajeets are fighting . There are many evidences to prove tamils are the OG indians. Check up tamil nadu archaeological department
A/2hoJ
No.125484
>>125451
The paper literally deboonks that steppe horseback analysis.
Zegros is the region of interest and it's not based on my analysis rather literally the most recent research paper.
Ugra is not misinterpreting rather explaining the basics of the papers in simple manner. Calling out issues with papers is alright too.
WTxO6+
No.125491
>>125480
Your view that the Swat Valley samples lack significant Steppe_MLBA ancestry and that the Indo Aryan migration theory is outdated doesn't align with the current genetic evidence.
>Steppe_MLBA Ancestry in Swat Valley
Narasimhan analyzed ancient DNA from the Swat Valley and found that individuals from the Late Bronze Age and Iron Age (1200 BCE to 1 CE) exhibited approximately 20% Steppe_MLBA ancestry. This indicates a substantial genetic input from Steppe populations during this period .
>Gene Flow
partially true ig, the Swat Valley samples show a lower proportion of R1a Z93 Y-chromosome haplogroups, The same study observed that in broader South Asia, there is a higher frequency of R1aZ93, particularly among Indo European speaking populations, suggesting a male mediated migration pattern .
6z4bmy
No.125493
>>125491
Satish got his nalla equivalent kek
WTxO6+
No.125496
>>125484
The Zagros region certainly played a major role in Neolithic expansions and the formation of early West Eurasian populations, I am not disputing that, But the key issue here isnt just about where early humans moved, but when and what linguistic and genetic signatures they left.
>recent horseback paper debunks the Steppe migration model
misinterpretation. The paper (Kanne et 2024) clarifies that early (emphasis on early) Yamnaya did not spread because of horseback riding, but it does not dispute the broader genetic and archaeological evidence that shows. It does not address the later Middle to Late Bronze Age Steppe groups like Sintashta and Andronovo, who are the actual carriers of Steppe_MLBA ancestry and R1a-Z93 lineages into South Asia. These later cultures did use spoke wheeled chariots, had extensive horse use, and are archaeologically and genetically associated with early Indo Iranians.
Steppe_MLBA ancestry entered South Asia after 2000 BCE (idk why this is so hard to understand)
Zagros doesn't explain the post IVC linguistic and genetic shifts seen in South Asia.
>Ugra
He does often have selective bias and overextend interpretations of papers, its better engagin with actual peer reviewed research directly...
A/2hoJ
No.125497
>>125491
>Narasimhan analyzed ancient DNA from the Swat Valley and found that individuals from the Late Bronze Age and Iron Age (1200 BCE to 1 CE) exhibited approximately 20% Steppe_MLBA ancestry. This indicates a substantial genetic input from Steppe populations during this period
The most cited paper and the biggest fraud is within that itself, out of 57 individuals 33 males and in that among 32 males only one person had R1a and you know the time period of that? It was 500BCE. It's too late based on the date they give out.
>>125491
>partially true ig, the Swat Valley samples show a lower proportion of R1a Z93 Y-chromosome haplogroups,
Lower is an understatement. As mentioned above.
Rest of the statement is blatant generalization when we have in fact proof of cultural spread from zegros region to upper volga, exchange of knowledge related to farming, the entire trade link b/w Mesopotamia to ivc, the horse domestication not happening at steppe and the timeline of domestication not matching the steppe expansion at all. etc. etc.
fUNgHn
No.125499
>>125424(OP)
ALL SANDNÍGGERS IN THIS THREAD MUST KNOW THAT YAMNAYA WERE INDIANS AS BOTH R1A AND R1B ARE VERY DIVERSE IN INDIA .THERE ARE MANY OTHER REASONS I HAVE ACROSS ON WHY YAMNAYA WERE INDIANS I WILL SHARE THEM BY MAKING THREADS IN THE FUTURE.
6z4bmy
No.125500
>>125499
Abe lodu there's no sandnígger here
fUNgHn
No.125501
>>125500
IF YOUR TAKES ARE SANDNÍGGER TIER YOU WILL BE CONSIDERED SANDNÍGGER ETHNICALLY.
fUNgHn
No.125502
fUNgHn
No.125503
>>125502
OK I WILL ASK
uvAX71
No.125504
>>125478
So basically iranians are the ones who went and fucked both pajeetas and whitey women
A/2hoJ
No.125505
>>125496
>I am not disputing that, But the key issue here isnt just about where early humans moved, but when and what linguistic and genetic signatures they left.
PIE homeland being around zegros mountains makes better sense and explains this though.
The entire culture bull worship, exchange of cattles, ancestry contribution, extent of iran_n farmers and mixing with various groups and trade along indo-iranian plateau is better explanation of spread of the culture or formation of the aryan culture along around ivc than random macho on a horse which didn't exist when they started their migration at all.
Based on latest papers further explanations we can see the indo-iranian split, that ivc was actually an IE speaking civilization.
new papers give better perspective on the southern arc theory. In fact swat valley samples are outright meaningless here.
fUNgHn
No.125507
>>125503
MANY PEOPLE IN INDIAN TRIBES CLAIM THERE ORIGIN FROM A RIVER WHICH SOUNDS VERY WEIRD BUT INTERESTINGLY EVEN IRISH CLAIM THEIR ORIGINS FROM RIVER DANU(DANU MEANS RIVER IN SANSKRIT) ASLO CHINESE HAVE THEIR ANCESTRY FORM YELLOW RIVER FARMER AND YELLOW RIVER IS ALSO YELLOW IS REAL LIUFE AS ITS NAME SUGGEST AND CHINESE RACE IS ALSO YELLOW .
IS RACE CONNECTED TO RIVERS ??
IS HINDU SCRIPTURES MANY PEOPLE WERE BORN OUT OF RIVERS .
A/2hoJ
No.125508
>>125504
Pajeeta and gori mem are modern day constructs. But majority of ancestry among Indians is through neolithic iranian farmers, who also mixed with aasi - during the urbanization phase which resulted in ivc, also further migration from nw part to the down south.
Once again, highest CHG / Iran_N like ancestry peaks in the subcontinent.
fUNgHn
No.125510
A/2hoJ
No.125512
>>125510
>BUT IN ANCIENT BOTH EUROPEAN "WOMEN"AND "MEN" WERE BLACK.
EHG might be light skin and even have blue eyes. ANE were result of atleast one ancestral group being East Eurasian groups.
fUNgHn
No.125513
WTxO6+
No.125514
>>125497
You are misunderstanding the scope of the Swat Valley data.The Narasimhan study itself acknowledges a gradual influx of Steppe_MLBA ancestry beginning after 1500 BCE, aligning with the timing of Indo Aryan migration not earlier.
R1a-Z93's low presence in the Swat sample (1/32 males) does not debunk Steppe migration because
>The Swat sample set was post-IVC and largely localized, not representative of all North India.
>The samples date from 1200 BCE to 1 CE therefore the post migration period.
>The absence of Y-chromosomes in a single region does not refute genome wide Steppe ancestry, which is 20% and visible across North India today.
>yDNA bottlenecks and local drift easily explain uneven R1a spread.
The Zagros theory doesnt explain the absence of R1a Z93 in ancient Zagros/Iran samples
The absence of Steppe_MLBA admixture in IVC populations
The arrival of chariot technology (spoked wheels + horse traction) only after 2000 BCE from Steppe, not Zagros
and yes cultural contact with Zagros existed but contact doesnt mean origin. it still doesn't explain
>Rigvedic Sanskrit
>Vedic rituals described post 1500 BCE
>Genetic and archaeological matches with Steppe cultures
A/2hoJ
No.125515
>>125513
It's kinda like Caucus hunter gatherers similar to neolithic iranians, brown, dark hair etc. mixed with EHG which were generally light skin, blue eyes - they gave rise to what became steppe/yamnya which further went on towards the western expansion of the europe.
EHG had contribution from ANE which seems to have genetics for blonde hair, ANE was result from western eurasian and east eurasian people.
fUNgHn
No.125516
>>125514
"AASI" IS A GHOST POPULATION WHICH SCIENTISTS ARE CONFUSED ABOUT EVEN THE MOST EURPEAN LOOKING KALASH HAVE 15-20% AASI.
SAW A SAMPLE ON TWITTER OF SWAT VALLEY WITH 20 AASI IHAD PALE SKIN ,BLUE EYESAND BLONDE HAIR.
fUNgHn
No.125517
>>125515
ANF WERE MORE LIGHT SKIN THAN EHG I THINK
fUNgHn
No.125518
>>125515
ALSO EUROPEANS DO NOT HAVE ROBUST FEATURES DUE TO LESS CHG WHILE NEAR THE CAUCAS PEOPLE LIKE CHECHENS HAVE MORE ROBUST FEATURES AND ARE STILL WHITE DUE TO MORE CHG .
fUNgHn
No.125520
>>125518
SEE PICREL HE LOOKS LIKE YAMNAYA HE IS MY REAL BROTHER .
WTxO6+
No.125521
>>125505
Zagros is not PIE Homeland, first of all No R1a Z93 or Steppe_MLBA ancestry in Neolithic Iran/Zagros samples.
The Southern Arc paper (Reich et al. 2023) clearly distinguishes the Anatolian IE spread from the Indo-Iranian branch, which comes from the Steppe (Sintashta-Andronovo), not Zagros.
Chariot Tech Timeline Matches Steppe, Not Zagros.Spoked wheel horse chariots (real chariots, not oxcarts) first appear with Sintashta culture (2000 BCE). These cultures have R1a-Z93 and Steppe_MLBA DNA.
IVC had wheeled carts, but no evidence of chariot warfare or horses only after 1800 to1500 BCE do horses appear increased in the archaeological record.
and no swat valley Samples are not meaningless... The point is genome-wide Steppe_MLBA ancestry appears 20%, even if R1a is underrepresented.. Cultural impact of Indo-Aryans is shown through language, Vedic texts, rituals, and material culture all of which is post-IVC... The Vedic Sanskrit, cannot be explained by Iran_N groups cause they show no linguistic or archaeological continuity with the Rigvedic culture.
>Bull Worship
>Rigveda 10.86.14
ekaṁ gomāṁ adhi śṛṅge duhe naḥ |
ekaṁ vṛṣabhaṁ śatam indrāya pece |
ekaṁ bhakṣayat pathi vṛṣṇo aśvasya |
ekaṁ samīpe tanvaḥ śayānaḥ ||
fUNgHn
No.125522
>>125521
PIE HOMELAND IS HARYANA NCR REGION AS MAHABHARAT HAPPENED THERE, IT WILL BE CLEAR WHEN ANCIENT R1A AND R1B SAMPLES WILL BE FOUND THERE .
WTxO6+
No.125523
>>125522
Lol
fUNgHn
No.125524
>>125523
WHATS THE LOL ABOUT??MAHABHARAT IS A JOKE??
I DONT WANT O GO BRIEF THATS WHY I AM SIMPLIFYING THINGS.
ZvK1B8
No.125526
Wordcelling? Kek!
A/2hoJ
No.125527
>>125514
>chariot technology
this technology literally - even in shinauli one of the most advanced chariots with copper frames etc. with equids was found. Mesapotamia region around which IVC was already trading had developed chariots, carts already. Trade was rampant.
We already have proper paper i have shared earlier which showed that it was neolithic farmers which brought the sheep, cows, etc. etc. farming knowledge to the lower volga region, in fact three major influx from the zegros region. CHG is almost 50% contributes to the ancestry of the Yamnya.
Guess where CHG like ancestry peaks? It's in India.
Lazaridis paper states that Iran_n and CHG can be used as a proxy for each other. Another paper puts that IVC was a IE speaking civilization. So evolution into sanskrit is not a big deal. In fact rigveda literally mentions bull, cows both of which were worshipped in various cultures linked closely to the entire indo-iranian plateau including ivc.
>genetic
Once again it's not even remotely a proof. If you are saying that it's proven then you are bluffing no one. i already stated the meme about narsimha paper samples.
In fact there's already a paper which shows how higher steppe populated didn't really have literature associated with PIE, even language speakers it's in the areas where CHG is peaking which is likes of India etc. Greece etc. CHG is the proxy for IE.
Once again, no sample which is related to indian haplogroup is found in steppe none. In fact not even in iran, it's indian specific. The region around swat valley was mostly female mediated, possible that jeets were literally doing BDL meme. In fact that's what had happened around the volga region.
A/2hoJ
No.125528
Once again pic related is the latest paper. https://www.reddit.com/user/MostZealousideal1729/comments/1gj6h0f/protoindoeuropean_homeland_and_migrations_based/
4th pic is the region of PIE.
IVC was a IE speaking civilization.
The spread of neolithic farmers brought and eventually caused the rise of the various vedic culture points. In fact the same group was shared the farming knowledge, cows, sheeps etc. to the lower volga groups and eventually chg/iran_n contributed 50% to the yamnya ancestry. RigVeda is a fight of various aryan tribes in fact. None of the indian specific haplogroups are present outside indian subcont.
The horse domestication started atleast 500 to 1000 years later than steppe migration, in fact by the time the it's usage was already prevalent if not for war but for trade and navigation among entire region stretch of indo-iranian plateau.
The indian haplogroup story can be explained by the iran_n (chg) x lower volga or something similar and eventually it has the highest diversity in India.
Another important point is that ASI migration and genetic trace is visible in eastern north iranian region too, insinuating the back and forth migration which was happening already way before.
ZvK1B8
No.125529
fUNgHn
No.125530
>>125528
FIRST THEY CLAIMED UKRAINE OR CAUCAS THEN THEY CLAIMED SOUTH CAUCAS NOW THEY MIGHT ASWELL CLAIM SRILANKA AS THE HOMELAND
A/2hoJ
No.125531
Once again PGW culture pretty much coincides with the same region as the late harappan, before the excavation by the B.B. Lal it was projected as if IVC disappeared completely without a trace. When it shows more of a continuation from urbanization to later phases.
A/2hoJ
No.125534
>>125530
>Caucas
kek this is the funniest thing and master play on terminology ngl. Major reason for it was just to kinda downplay the Iran_N role and prop a separate more european centric meme.
Anyway sirs me off. If you have doubts just go through the link i shared above it has decent summary and in comments to for updates.
fUNgHn
No.125535
fUNgHn
No.125537
>>125534
ALSO WHY DO REDDITORS GET FURIOUS ABOUT OIT SO MUCH ARE THEY JUST CIA BOTS??
A/2hoJ
No.125539
>>125537
OIT is retarded but so is AIT, which is outright insidious.
Truth is getting clearer with each new paper at a time.
fUNgHn
No.125540
>>125535
DAVID REICH AND ALL THE OTHER RESEARCHERS ARE NOT DUMB THEY KNOW THAT OIT IS TRUE , ITS JUST THAT THEY HAVE BEEN TOLD TO SPREAD THE AIT NARRATIVE BY CIA OR HIGHER AUTHORITIES IN THE WEST .
fUNgHn
No.125542
>>125539
OIT IS NOT RETARTED YOU CIA GLOWNÍGGER
A/2hoJ
No.125545
>>125542
Yaar india is not a fountain that population will prop up, no place is in fact.
But i am not denying that root Aryan culture genetically and culturally is within the area of sapta sindhu.
WTxO6+
No.125546
>>125527
>sinauli
Already explained
>Chg peaks in India
No?. Lazaridis used CHG and Iran_N as proxies in modeling, but not to argue India as PIE homeland.
>Neolithic migration from Zagros to Volga caused PIE spread
early Iranian farmers did move northward during the Neolithic. But there is no linguistic or cultural evidence they were Indo-European speakers.
The CHG + EHG mixtur, 3000 BCE led to Yamnaya, this group is genetically, archaeologically, and linguistically associated with PIE, not earlier farmers.
>No Indian haplogroups found in Steppe
Yes, But that’s the entire point: R1aZ93 is a derived lineage that moved from the Steppe into India, not the other way around.The clade modern day Indians carry is new and descendant of clades from Russia, In India, we mostly find R1aZ93>L657, a younger offshoot that expanded 1500 BCE matching the Indo Aryan migration period.
>Swat female mediated gene flow
perhaps, early phases, female mediated gene flow into Swat is observed.But male-mediated Steppe ancestry picks up by 1200 BCE as shown in multiple papers (pathak et 2023)
>IVC spoke IE
nope, no proofs of this
q9J97E
No.125547
The so called theories try to oversimplify things. There was innumerable cross settlements, mixing in all permutations and combinations which no retarded PUT IT ALL THEORY can explain. And it's completely normal
WTxO6+
No.125549
>>125539
No not really btw, recently some sinauli samples were leaked
BMAC here admixture fits the expected pattern of Indo Aryan groups acquiring local ancestry en route to South Asia.
in Sinauli elite burials, it indicates Steppe derived males with advanced technology entering Indiavalidating male mediated migration and cultural transformation.
fUNgHn
No.125552
>>125549
ARE YOU A THIS SAME LINK IS POSTED HERE EVERY TIME OIT OR AIT IS MENTIONED
fUNgHn
No.125553
>>125552
*GLOWNIGGER
WTxO6+
No.125556
>>125552
I believe in AMT :)
1. Vedas are indic texts,composed/penned in India(periphery as well)
2) if Proto-Indo-Iranian=V. Sanskrit but was spoken by our ancestors.But Vedic Sanskrit too imo is native to India.
3. Migration and diffusion happened in Europe it was an invasion
A/2hoJ
No.125558
>>125546
>No?. Lazaridis used CHG and Iran_N as proxies in modeling, but not to argue India as PIE homeland.
I am not saying India is homeland to PIE i am saying that CHG like population like sarzam peaks in indian subcont and this is a fact based on data. I already shared the ss in this thread or previous.
>>125546
>early Iranian farmers did move northward during the Neolithic. But there is no linguistic or cultural evidence they were Indo-European speakers.
WTF you are literally writing out of the whim now.
>Saaar it's true that Neolithic farmers contributed 50% ancestry to yamnya, shared farming culture, cows, goats etc. etc. to the lower volga group, but it's only steppe which developed the language and culture and no where else
It's so dumb at this point. Atleast it's not my opinion rather i am sharing a paper which mentions about IVC being IE speaking and multiple other papers explaining about how trade etc. happened.
>>125546
>The CHG + EHG mixtur, 3000 BCE led to Yamnaya, this group is genetically, archaeologically, and linguistically associated with PIE, not earlier farmers.
Outdated Kurgan model not the latest paper, same model which failed when it came to horse based spread of the ie culture. Once again complete retardation.
>>125546
>Yes, But that’s the entire point: R1aZ93 is a derived lineage that moved from the Steppe into India, not the other way around.The clade modern day Indians carry is new and descendant of clades from Russia, In India, we mostly find R1aZ93>L657, a younger offshoot that expanded 1500 BCE matching the Indo Aryan migration period.
This entire claim of Indo-iranians being linked to CWC is in muddy waters btw. The L657 is not even present among outside those in India.
>The second caveat is that - as JP Mallory noted in his 1997 book - there is absolutely no archaeological signature for a Sintashta-Andronovo incursion into the Indo-Iranian sphere. Based on data from over 500 sites - this is an empirical source of friction for many years now
The ancestry or the haplogroup can be explained with the fact that the CHG ancestry
>The latest preprint on the Indo-Anatolians shows the intrusion of CHG ancestry into the Lower Volga region where many kurgans have been excavated. In data presented, we see that the highest CHG ancestry is in an individual having the y-haplo J2a-M319.
>This y-haplo and its subclades are much more common among Indo-Iranians and at frequencies that match the CHG-affiliated autosomal ancestries for these populations. CHG & J2a >>> Steppes & R1a.
This is based on new paper quoting ugra__. As i said earlier and will said again anyone who pushes this nonsense that 'steppe theory is proven' especially when it comes to ancestry like this is bluffing.
>nope, no proofs of this
Blaady i literally shared paper which literally gives us dates of indo-iranian split. It is contemporary to the IVC.
>>125546
>perhaps, early phases, female mediated gene flow into Swat is observed.But male-mediated Steppe ancestry picks up by 1200 BCE as shown in multiple papers (pathak et 2023)
>changes paper name
saaar out of the 33 males, only one had r1a haplogroup and that too is from 500BCE. Is steppe migration now as late as 500BCE?
In fact it's opposite which has most likely happened that post urbanization, most people were migrating in and out which shows the extent of our haplogroup till that region or whatever.
Somehow entire culture of IVC etc. is turned 180degree without a trace of invasion or incursion - inb4 you ask for proof i already shared above that among 500 samples no such case.
The reason for indian haplogroup is once again back to zegros and complete indo-iranian pleateau being trade zone. The PIE1 homeland as mentioned earlier is literally trading everything with IVC. The culture hub of PGW literally coincides completely with IVC.
There's literal explanation above based on the latest papers. Now since we are back to circular logic i am nopping out. Good night saaars. If you want to update your LLM from 2019 onwards, https://www.reddit.com/user/MostZealousideal1729/comments/1gj6h0f/protoindoeuropean_homeland_and_migrations_based/ go through this and then do whatever.
It summarizes most of what we discussed including the formation of the vedic culture. I already answered about the genetics part. Last reply closing at my end.
A/2hoJ
No.125559
>>125549
>BMAC here admixture fits the expected pattern of Indo Aryan groups acquiring local ancestry en route to South Asia.
No it doesn't you are repeating the swat valley nonsense once again.
fUNgHn
No.125560
>>125559
He's a ghodu trust me
A/2hoJ
No.125561
>>125549
I am aware of the leak and don't think it's a big deal in overall discussion.
>in Sinauli elite burials, it indicates Steppe derived males with advanced technology entering Indiavalidating male mediated migration and cultural transformation.
>advance technology
That copper frame type structure for the chariot, none of the chariots found in the sintashta etc. region had such structures at all btw.
A/2hoJ
No.125562
BMAC and mixup can be explained separately, it's pretty much unrelated to the indian subcont. convo. It's a separate discussion hence not worth any thoughts on it.
fUNgHn
No.125563
>>125561
CIA/US STATE DEPARTMENT INTENTIONALLY PROMOTES AIT
A/2hoJ
No.125565
>>125547
That's the biggest issue, that AIT or AMT or steppe theory is completely simplification, they used every hook or crook to justify their theory and to them nothing is before yamnya - they will find new ways to cope than accept this retardation. The fact that narsimha et. al despite such egriguous issues are pushed is the issue. The fact that it is still claimed 3 waves of neolithic farmers who formed civilization, shared the trade information, cows, sheeps domestication technique etc. and contributed 50% to the so called 'kurgan PIE' has no focal point is hilarious. Thankfully new papers correct all of this issue.
First showcased that Southern arc is completely sensible when you see the extent of trade, how the IE literature which were preserved were in the culture which had more to do with the CHG like population etc. than anything.
More papers now talk about remaining aspects, etc. Good night saars anyway.
fUNgHn
No.125566
>>125565
they think history in 1 + 1=2
whole actual history is 1/3 + 1/2 + integration + differentiation+double displacement+..... =2
WTxO6+
No.125581
>>125558
>CHG like ancestry like Sarazm peaks in India, so that disproves Steppe theory.
CHG (Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer) ancestry is not exclusive to the Steppe or to India. It is widespread from the Caucasus, through Iran_N, and into South Asia due to pre-Bronze Age Neolithic movements, not IE migrations.
Indian populations have Iran_N ancestry, which includes CHG, because of Neolithic migrations via Mehrgarh and later IVC before the Steppe migrations (~7000–2000 BCE).
But most importantly CHG alone is not diagnostic of Indo European identity. It's part of the ancestry of Yamnaya people (50%), who combined CHG + EHG (Eastern Hunter-Gatherers). It's that unique fusion on the Pontic-Caspian steppe around 3300 to 2500 BCE that gave rise to PIE languages.
>Early Iranian farmers contributed culture and genetics to Yamnaya, so they must be PIE speakers.
language is not inherited with autosomes.
There is no linguistic, archaeological, or symbolic evidence that early Iranian farmers were Indo-European speakers. Their cultural packages (ceramics, burials, subsistence) do not match early IE traits.
The Yamnaya and later Sintashta cultures, which developed distinctive kurgan burials, wheeled transport, horse domestication, and R1a-M417 (Z93), are where IE speech communities are archaeologically and linguistically anchored.
>Outdated Kurgan model
Why Do you keep repeating that? The Kurgan hypothesis got updated by Anthony & Ringe (2015) and Lazaridis et al. (2022) and is very much active and refined, not obsolete.
It no longer rests solely on horse domestication but is backed by:
Linguistic evidence (core PIE words for wheel, axle, yoke, etc.).
Genetic evidence of Steppe-related ancestry in IE-speaking populations.
Spread of R1a-Z93 and Steppe autosomes into India post-1500 BCE.
Horse remains in India (e.g., at Surkotada) are highly contested, fragmentary, and don’t date earlier than 2000 BCE with certainty.
Anthony et al. (2023 preprint) reaffirm Yamnaya as the linguistic and cultural PIE homeland.
Steppe ancestry in India is minimal before 2000 BCE, then increases gradually from 1500 BCE onward, consistent with male biased migration.
>R1a-Z93>L657 is Indian-specific, not found outside.
R1a-Z93 originated on the Central Steppe (2300 to 2000 BCE).
L657 is a subclade of Z93, which is itself found in ancient Steppe samples (Sintashta, Andronovo). Its basal diversity is higher in the Steppe, not India.
R1a L657 is not present in Harappan or Neolithic Indian DNA, First appearances of R1a-Z93 lineages in Swat Valley and GGC cultures post 1500 BCE match Indo-Aryan migration dates.
>J2a-M319 is associated with CHG ancestry and more frequent in Indo-Iranians.
J2a predates Indo-European migrations, and it is found in non IE speaking regions
Frequency of J2a among Indo Iranians is a legacy of Neolithic migrations.
CHG ancestry in the Lower Volga does not imply language origin rather reflects population movements.
Anyway There is no paper that assigns PIE origin to J2a.
JP Mallory’s comment (1997) is outdated. Since then we had
>PGW sites (1200 to 600 BCE) reflect Vedic ritual patterns.
>Gandhara Grave Complex shows mixed Steppe BMAC harappan ancestry and burial customs.
WTxO6+
No.125585
>Only 1 out of 33 Swat Valley males had R1a; Steppe migration must be false.
Nope I am referring to Pathak 2023,Early Swat samples (1200 BCE) show female mediated Steppe ancestry first, followed by male mediated R1a lineages later.Possible since elite clans arrived later
The presence of R1a in post-1000 BCE Swat males, and the spread of Steppe autosomes, supports AMT.
The lag in male Steppe ancestry is expected in slow migration
>IVC spoke Indo European Vedic culture grew indigenously.
Nope, no deciphered IVC script, no proof of IE language. All Harappan individuals tested lack Steppe ancestry.
Vedic Sanskrit is closer to Avestan and Mitanni, who are unambiguously Steppe derived.
PGW culture begins after Harappan collapse, and R1a appears only then.
There is a clear genetic and chronological separation
WTxO6+
No.125590
anyways I am going now, I didnt expect this discussion to go around this long, but it seems like we have reached a point where this discussion is futile lets just agree to disagree
lXwrnb
No.125615
>>125442
Imagine paying 1500 per month + Server fees and all to get cucked. Even 4chan doesn't pay their mods or jannies.
lXwrnb
No.125616
>>125451
I can't speak for genetic, and archaeological. But from the linguistic side, there is a very strong support of steppe origin for Indo-European languages. Linguistics is something which I find pretty fascinating.
lXwrnb
No.125619
>>125616
I'm not autistic enough to mull over genetic data and shit like you guys. I don't really have much stake in it, my interest in linguistics is for linguistics itself, not for some historical autism. If you have even a basic understanding of linguistics, the steppe origin for Indo-European languages is very apparent.
