Recent Posts
Parliamentary Debating
kOIPbN
No.794
This post is for all college-goers like me who enjoy thinking critically and arguing for what they believe in.
I had the good fortune of getting short-listed for my college's debate team, and have taken part in some Asian Parliamentary & British Parliamentary competitions over the last two months. I have three novice breaks currently, and was a semi-finalist twice.
Debating is a team sport where you are either in a team of three in case of APD, or a team of two in case of BP. It is a highly-fulfilling activity, since you win as a team, and the rounds can get very tense and exciting.
In the case of APD, I go as the Whip, and in the case of BP, I go as the second speaker, which means either Deputy or Whip depending on whether I am in the opening half or closing half.
I am sure that these terms sound a bit confusing, so I will explain each format in detail.
kOIPbN
No.795
I will start with the easier format of the two: Asian Parliamentary Debating.
We have two benches: Government and Opposition.
Each bench has three speakers:
1. First Speaker: PM or LO
2. Second Speaker: DPM or DLO
3. Third Speaker: Gov or Opp Whip
The speaker order is depicted in picrel. After all the six constructive speeches, we also have replies, in which Opp goes first and then Gov concludes.
Each speaker has a unique burden to fulfill in the debate.
1. For first speaker, you are essentially required to set up the premise for the debate. This includes providing a framework i.e. how the world works, which could include definitions and characterization of individuals and events. After that, you have to clearly define your stakeholders i.e. the people that would be impacted positively in your paradigm, and probably negatively impacted in the other bench's paradigm. Once that is done, you start with your main arguments, where you also have to provide mechanization i.e. coherent logical reasoning for all your claims. Failure to do that would mean that your points are not credited by the panel. The Leader of Opposition has the additional burden of giving rebuttals, as the PM precedes him.
For example: If the motion is This House Supports Hustle Culture, the PM can start by defining hustle culture, characterizing the modern world as fast and cut-throat, and stating that young individuals seeking upward mobility are their primary stakeholders. The arguments could be regarding escaping poverty, higher standard of living despite, new avenues of income, etc.
2. For second speaker, you are supposed to start with rebuilding and rebuttals. This means that you have to convince the panel why your side's framing and claims still stand inspite of the contrary claims pushed by the other side. After that, you can further expand on the arguments pushed by your first speaker by providing end impacts for each claim. You can also bring up some new arguments of your own. For example: The LO might try to claim that burn-out extinguishes all progress in hustle culture, but DPM can counter that by saying that the hustling individual is atleast able to exist at higher station in life when he finally breaks down, so he has better chances of recovering and making a comeback. Then, he can claim that an end impact is a whole legion of young working individuals transforming their lives and providing better opportunities to their family in the long run.
3. For third speaker, you have to fulfill the role of a biased adjudicator. That means that you essentially need to convince the panel why your side is clearly winning. It involves two steps: clash identification and weighing. For clashes, you have two pair up the claims from both sides that state different facts for the same point. After that, you have to weigh those clashes in terms of metrics like Likelihood, Opt-In, Pragmatics, Vulnerability, etc. You can also mitigate the harms that are pushed on your side by establishing symmetry i.e. what they are claiming would happen on our side happens on their side too, or flipping, by saying that the harm does not even occur on our side, but actually occurs exclusively on their side. For explicit weighing, you have to do Best Case-Worst Case analysis, where you prove why even your side's worst case is much better than the other side's best case, and Even-If analysis, where you establish exclusivity of some benefit provided by your side. For example: A clash in your debate can be Upward Mobility v/s Burnout where Gov claims that people are able to uplift themselves due to hustle culture, while Opp claims that it leads to burnout so people are less productive down the line. As gov whip, you can argue that even if a person gets burnt out, they only experience this at a much layer stage, and after they have already established themselves professionally. At that point, the person can actually afford to take a break, since they work
kOIPbN
No.796
continued:
very hard before that happened. In Opp's paradigm, the person never even reaches their full potential. On the metric of Vulnerability, Gov takes the clash since the primary stakeholder is less vulnerable in our paradigm.
One thing that whips have to remember is that they cannot bring up any new arguments, and can only provide new analysis, rebuttals, mechanization, extensions, etc. Otherwise, it would count as whip dump, and would not be credited.
During replies, which can be given by either the first or second speaker from each side, you give a quick run-down of the debate and why your side has won.
The first three speeches are seven minutes and fifteen seconds long, while the reply is 4 minutes and thirty seconds long.
POIs aka Points on Interjection can be posed during the three constructive speeches by the other side, but only between the first and sixth minute. POIs are questions that you ask the other side, and should be clearly-worded and within 15 seconds. The speaker can choose not to answer a POI, but it is encouraged to do so.
Speakers are given scores by the judging panel on a scale of 70-85, and the Chair and Panelist decide which side wins. After that, they give their OA i.e. Oral Adjudication, and the debating teams also grade them on a scale of 1-10 based on that.
I typically get speaks between 76-78 in competitions, which is considered a decent score.
"Breaking" means qualifying for the outrounds. A debate runs over three days. The first two days feature five qualifying rounds where you are paired up with teams. These are not eliminative. The 8 or 16 teams with the top scores are able to break after five rounds, and are called on the third day for knockouts. Knockouts start with either Octofinals or Quarterfinals, and then end with the final, which is usually livestreamed.
After three novice tournament breaks and three open tournament breaks, you are considered an open speaker.
I might become an open speaker by the time my second year at college starts.
I am from Ramjas, and the DU circuit boasts an impressive debating history. Every college organizes flagship comps and has active debating societies.
kOIPbN
No.797
I will post about the British Parliamnetary format and Motion Types after lunch.
kOIPbN
No.798
Motion Types:
1. THW: This House Would
This is a policy motion, where Gov is supposed to provide a policy and defend it, while Opp has to prove why it is harmful, or provide some counter-policy which is better. Gov has fiat in this motion, which means that Opp cannot pose questions regarding funding or operations, they can merely talk about the negative consequences, scope, etc.
Ex: THW allow the sale of organs
2. THR: This House Regrets
This motion requires Gov to provide a counterfactual where the event that is being regretted did not happen, or the object being regretted does not exist, and prove why that alternative is better. Opp has to defend the status quo in this motion.
Ex: THR brainrot content
3. THS: This House Supports
Both sides provide Harms vs Benefit analysis. Gov supports, Opp opposes.
Ex: THS the declining rate of marriage
4. THO: This House Opposes
Both sides provide Harms vs Benefit analysis. Gov opposes, Opp supports.
Ex: THO the rise of romantic AI chatbots
5. TH as X: Actor's Motion
You have to speak on the behalf of the actor, and establish why the actor is more likely to do or not do something, and why that would benefit that actor.
Ex: TH as an Indian father would pressurise his son to do engineering
6. THBT: This House Believes That
This is a value assessment motion where Gov defends a viewpoint and Opp opposes it. It could have an aspect of harms vs benefits too.
Ex: THBT political correctness has done more harm than good
7. THP X over Y: This House Prefers X over Y
Gov tries to prove why X is better Opp tries to prove why Y is better.
Ex: THP being a housewife over being a working mom
kOIPbN
No.799
Here is a sample manual for British Parliamentary Debate competitions.
kOIPbN
No.800
Overall British Parliamentary Format involves two sides, Gov and Opp, but four benches: Opening Gov, Opening Opp, Closing Gov, Closing Opp. Each bench has two speakers. Opening benches have PM-DPM, LO-DLO. Closing benches have GM-GW, OM-OW. Each speech lasts seven minutes fifteen seconds, just like in the Asian format.
Teams are ranked from 1 to 4 at the end of the round. 1st Team gets 3 points, 2nd gets 2 points, 3rd gets 1 point & 4th gets 0. As for OAs, only the chair gives one after deliberation with the rest of the panel.
Refer to the diagram for speaker order and general burdens.
All global competitions are British Parliamentary Debates.
kOIPbN
No.801
Now, I open the floor to questions. Ask away, pyaron.
12xBa5
No.802
Damn.
kOIPbN
No.803
Full disclosure: This is just an introduction to the world of debating. I have not discussed about adjudication yet.
Also, I am a lot more familiar with the APD format, and all three of my breaks were in APDs. I have only done a few BP mocks, and one BP comp. I am a beginner too, since I am a first year student who has only debated for roughly two months. I have a lot to learn as well.
kOIPbN
No.806
kOIPbN
No.809
>point BhaCh keyboard warriors towards productive outlet for their anger
>they still prefer bhosadpilling, baiting and incelposting
Broatul.
K+wIJ9
No.810
Sad indeed, let me read
6Z+8K4
No.811
>>794(OP)
I know about a debating club in my uni. They have asinine arguments and vague constructions, most of all to impress judges and win. This has soured me on all debate. The only thing such a club produces is relayers of platitudes. Worser yet, they do quite well in debate competitions. Such a terrible state.
BrAipw
No.812
Go back
We don't care about your bhangi kalej debate club
kOIPbN
No.813
>>811
Really? Do they do parliamentary debating? Are they a part of the Delhi circuit?
At least in DU, the debate societies have standards, and we have five mocks per week, and three to four speaker sessions a month. We take this stuff seriously.
At the international level, it gets very competitive too. I suggest that you look up speamers like Bo Seo and Hadar Goldberg.
As for facts, debating is not about that. It is about rhetoric.
I was once able to defend marital rape in an actor's motion debate and still win that round, inspite of half the panelists reporting me afterwards, kek. So, it is not like a difference in politics or ideology is going to make you lose. You just need to have coherent reasoning and be persuasive.
6Z+8K4
No.814
>>811
at any rate: wordcelling, or 'debate', has an education for it, and as such a syllabus, if you use the quotes they want to hear, the concepts they can 'ho ho' too, you'll fetch top marks!
kOIPbN
No.815
>>812
This is the literature board, and Dyaush told me that I could post about debating here.
I just found it an intellectually-stimulating activity, so I decided to share it with fellow anons.
>we
Who is we?
>go back
How about you hide the thread if you are so assmad?
6Z+8K4
No.816
>>813
yes they do parliamentary debating, specifically the british style(which is far the inferior as compared to the asian style).
>As for facts, debating is not about that. It is about rhetoric
which was why I was deceived! rhetoric is an art in itself, yes.
I'm not a person built for debate, at any rate. I do think there is some skill in it, but I was sorely disappointed in the disconnect between conception and actuality.
kOIPbN
No.817
>>814
Lol what?
Sure, debate has some jargon attached, but it is primarily concerned with rhetoric. I have won against many word-celler teams by simply having clarity of thought and coherent arguments. I was a semi-finalist in my very first comp, which had plenty if experienced teams, because my team focused on running a good case instead of using flowery language.
6Z+8K4
No.818
>>816
I also found it difficult to argue against something I believed in, or argue about something I didn't have a strong opinion on.
kOIPbN
No.819
>>816
I agree. Even I prefer the Asian format. BP gets so muddled at times, and the marking scale is a fucking joke. Wins are handed for the most arbitray thing in BP. AP is more balanced, and has more room for engagement between the two sides.
DU prefers the APD format usually, especially at fresher level.
>disconnect between conception and actuality
The adj will literally buy that the sky is actually pink instead of blue if you are able logically sequence it.
Debating is the art of fooling to a certain extent. That is what makes it fun.
kOIPbN
No.820
>>818
I have literally argued in favor of alimony in a motion lol. It was a herculean task.
I think it is important to be able to present arguments for stuff that you disagree with. The ability to think from the other side's perspective is a sign of intelligence.
agAT1Y
No.822
I dunno bro I just wish I was in a Tier-1 Arts college where I could've enjoyed and learnt from these things. While I veritably respect the arts of debating and oration in general, I find myself more inclined to the arts of acting, of which speech is a core module. I simply find it more comprehensive and more useful for real life than simple debating.
Even our prophet Muhammad saw debated a lot with his companions about different elements of the erstwhile and contemporary culture as well as deen & duniya around him.
It will be interesting to see where this thread goes further onwards.
kOIPbN
No.823
More than anything, debating fixed my attention span, expanded my friend group, and helped me land a girlfriend. That is a win in my books.
6Z+8K4
No.824
>>823
>and helped me land a girlfriend
Atvl brootaleshwaram for me. I skipped clubs entirely as they were a waste of time(they are a waste of time in an enginigggering college)
My interest in the humanities only really lies in logic and soycial soyciences like sociology and the like.
>>822
>our prophet
who is 'our' here? vater plebbitor?
agAT1Y
No.825
>>824
Every person is born a Muslim. Some realize it sooner than later.
kOIPbN
No.826
>>822
I am glad that you are interested in acting. I did theatre as a kid, and it was fun too. What school of acting do you subscribe to, FP?
>Muhammad
Bait, or are you really a Muslim?
>>821
Thanks for sharing this video, Pseudo. I will check it out.
>judging
I subscribe to the Goldberg method of adjudication. It is very objective. I am linking screenshots from an online adjing workshop that I attended.
kOIPbN
No.827
>>824
I am an Economics student who had PCM in school, so I can relate with you on that. I am particularly drawn to Econometrics, and have learnt R, Python and SQL in my free time for that. We would have it as a subject next year, and I am so hyped.
kOIPbN
No.828
>>825
Please do not fuck up this thread bhai. Take your baiting elsewhere.
6Z+8K4
No.829
>>827
I am learning some econ as well, I'm pretty decent at econometrics and like macro
logic(formal logic) is way more useful than I thought it would be. You can get better at comprehending stuff and better argumentation, though it will still be mostly rhetoric.
agAT1Y
No.830
>>826
>What school of acting do you subscribe to, FP?
I don't know anything about acting. I always though of it as a merriment of the affluent when there still was time for me to decide whether I wanted to pursue that stream in life. Needless to say now I regret my opinion after years of delving off-track into philisophy while being a student of natural sciences.
>Bait, or are you really a Muslim?
Till Sunset.
kOIPbN
No.831
>>829
Even I find that debating has enhanced my way of thinking, as I now think in a very sequential and structured manner, and am able to recognize loopholes and gaps in my thinking.
>even I am studying Econ
Cool! I am planning on creating some econometrics-related threads in acd or sci after my Sem 1 exams end.
agAT1Y
No.832
>>828
Thats not how reddit doesn't work bro. I hope you can appreciate that.
kOIPbN
No.833
>>830
It is never too late to try acting. You can pursue it as a hobby.
>student of natural sciences
BSc? Broatul.
kOIPbN
No.834
>>832
Just don't do mullah baiting here. If you want to talk about debating and the like, fine. Otherwise, go elsewhere.
I appreciate that you are into theatre, as it too requires persuasion like debating does. Both western forms developed alongside each other in Greece.
6Z+8K4
No.835
>>831
>Cool! I am planning on creating some econometrics-related threads in acd or sci after my Sem 1 exams end.
do do it. I'll also make a macro-thread so anons can understand news headlines and policy decisions. but that will be late mid-late december.
kOIPbN
No.836
In debating, it is also crucial to know about the happenings around the world, especially in the case of Econ and IR motions. For that, prominent debaters develop bulky matter files that you can refer to for your preparation.
I once had to debate on a motion related to South Korea's approach of diplomacy towards North Korea, namely Moon and Yoon approach.
Debating also helps you keep up with current affairs.
I will try posting the Panama Matter File and the Vietnam Matter File later.
kOIPbN
No.838
Anyways, the craziest topic that I have ever debated on is:
TH as an Indian man Would worship his wife.
My team went as Opp and we were able to win even after offending the panelist by defending marital rape.
I encountered a crazy motion in the debate archives too. It was from late 1980s, and it was:
THBT Japan should not exist.
6Z+8K4
No.839
>>838
>My team went as Opp and we were able to win even after offending the panelist by defending marital rape.
>offending the panelist
yeh toh based hain
>THBT Japan should not exist.
agAT1Y
No.840
8fmgDM
No.843
>>841
Its a great example if you want to explain any newbies the importance of rhetoric over knowledge or established facts.
If I were you I would compile a set of similar videos to guide my juniors and newbies about different mechanics of debating. Live demonstration is simply more impactful and allays any insecurities and doubts about the validity of your δοκεῖ that you profess as a guide to others.
(δοκεῖ is root for latin 'dogma' but with more liberal connotations)
Thats how our nabi pak prophet Muhammad SAW used to teach to his sahabis.
kOIPbN
No.844
>>843
Yeah, we were freshers this year, and got to witness many exhibition debate mocks and attended many seminars which broke down different aspects of debating like case prep, certain motion themes, adjing, etc. After that, we had loads of practice for roughly a month before we did our first comp.
I would probably help in organizing training for the next batch of freshers.
>our
For the last time, I am not interested in Islam, and that is not the point of this thread.
kOIPbN
No.845
I am just sad that we had to organize our flagship comp, Polemic, online this year. It usually happens offline, and we were told that it would be fun :((
Cut to conducting it on Discord kek.
Well, maybe next year.
kOIPbN
No.846
That reminds me, you get prize money if you are a semi-finalist, finalist or the winner.
I am yet to receive the prize money for any of my comps though. My seniors told me that it would take a while.
Debating is a strain when it comes to money and time too. A typical offline competition runs from 9 AM to roughly 6 PM for three consecutive days i.e. Saturday, Sunday, Monday. The typical fees of a competition is 600-650 Rs. I think that these are some downsides of debating, but the benefits are immense, which is why I wanted to encourage all fellow college-goers to give it a try.
6Z+8K4
No.847
>>846
how much were you promised?
kOIPbN
No.848
>>847
2500 for the two AP comps where I was semi-finalist. Provided, it would be split three-way, so 833 for each comp. 1666 total. One was organized by IIT-D, and the other was organized by BITS. Did not expect these colleges to cheap out kek.
As for the other two, I made it to the quarter final in one, and did not break in the last one (fucking BP). No money for either of them.
6Z+8K4
No.849
>>848
>Provided, it would be split three-way, so 833 for each comp. 1666 total. One was organized by IIT-D, and the other was organized by BITS. Did not expect these colleges to cheap out kek.
clubs don't get funding from their governing authorities for such events, so the expense is all on them. Also enginigggering peoples are very jewish either way.
kOIPbN
No.850
>>849
True
6Z+8K4
No.851
>>850
Hows DU actually? I don't know much about humanities colleges. I sort of imagine them being very interconnected because of all the campuses being in one city.
kOIPbN
No.852
>>851
The North Campus is well-connected. The South Campus has colleges in pairs I think, but they are all in each other's vicinity. Off campus colleges are sprinkled here and there.
I am from Ramjas, and have friends in other colleges like Hindu and Stephen's, which are proximate. We also get to hang out near DU colleges geared just towards Masters. I usually loiter around Delhi School of Economics, because that is one of the places where I want to potentially end up for Masters.
As for the college life, it is usually at night time when the area finally comes alive. As a day scholar, I do not have as much experience with it, but a PG-dweller might have more to tell. The actual DU life is experienced by those in areas like Kamla Nagar, Hudson Lane and Mukherjee Nagar.
Overall, DU is pretty normal. I am in a demanding and competitive course along with two societies, so I do not have much time for exploring and doing fun stuff. Maybe someone in a more chill course will have better stuff to tell.
Sorry if this is a boring answer, since I am a rather boring person kek.
kOIPbN
No.853
I also think that DU girls are a bit mischaracterized. The average girl, in my course at least, is more focused on her academics and career than hook-ups and dates. Sure, some just spend the whole time clubbing and shopping, but those are just 2-3 girls out of roughly 25. The rest are in the same boat as me, and going through the same struggles that I am. They think the same things, dream about the same stuff, and do the same tasks that I do.
I thought that DU would be a black-pilling experience, but it has been surprisingly blue-pilling.
I was in the PCM section in school, and there were only 5 girls in my class. Even before that, I never talked much with my female classmates. Coming to DU has demystified women for me, and I think that is one of the up-sides of higher education. You are an adult, but still in a controlled environment, so you get exposed to all sorts of stuff while having both agency and protection.
I finally think that I have started to understand how women work, and I do not dislike them anymore.
That is one of the reasons why I push back against some of the stuff said about women on this forum. It is just in complete contradiction with what I see around myself daily, that I feel a need to correct other anons.
The truth is that most women are normal, and want the same things that we want. That is one thing besides economics and debating that I have learnt since joining this university.
TL;DR: Women are not that bad. Most of them are normal and reasonable.
kOIPbN
No.854
>inb4 randi rakshak
Sure, just don't call them randis kek.
kOIPbN
No.855
Tying that back to the thread theme, debating also forces you to challenge pre-conceived notions and makes you re-think about your biases too. This spilled over in my personal life too, as I started viewing women as normal once I finally interacted with them with an open mind. I am still very casteist though, and have become even more so after joining DU. More exposure to chamars just makes you hate them even more.
XIuGGY
No.856
Jat sissyfy ho gya 🤣🤣
kOIPbN
No.857
>>856
Arre bhai. I can't call women randis in good faith anymore, since so many of them are my friends now.
You are one to talk about being a sissy, since you admitted to literally sulking cock as a kid. Not to mention, you are Muslim, and we all know what the men of Al Zutt did to Muhammad.
kOIPbN
No.858
To be fair, even Arthur Schopenhauer later retracted some of his harsher statements about women when he became acquainted with a female sculptor.
Sooner or later, the right woman can make any man change his tune.
XIuGGY
No.859
>>857
🤣🤣 eternal Jat buddhi.
You know nothing about me and I wasn't talking about the "randi" issue.
I wonder what would happen if we force a Jat to meditate under a banyan tree.😂
XIuGGY
No.861
"I make and I sell soap."
Perhaps the reason why I am the most banned person on bhach... Yet they tolerate me when I reappear because even they realize that I was making a point.
Good Night 😉🫡
qXGohE
No.862
>>861
Chutiya hai kya? Keke.
Anyways, I am kind of going through debate withdrawals, so I may do a crossmock.
Normal mocks are held within the society, but those are not enough at times.
In the Delhi circuit, we have dedicated community channels where we can find people and teams to practice against. These groups are also where a lot of tournaments are announced.
I have done two BP crossmocks till now, and had a decent experience with both. Sure, some people can be rather arrogant, but most are pleasant, and are just there to learn. It also helps in connecting with all sorts of people, so it is pretty fun overall.
qXGohE
No.863
I really enjoyed watching the videos linked by Pseudo and FP. I especially liked Greece vs Rome, as it was a great display of both English humor and intellect. I think that Boris Johnson would have been better suited as a university professor of the Classics than as a politician.
Nietzsche's critique of reason was an interesting video too.
Thanks for sharing them.
4dJRhV
No.864
qXGohE
No.865
>>864
I take it that you like Boris Johnson, kek.
