Recent Posts
Serious question on varna
qvg/uF
No.301012
I have been in twitter rabbitholes and discord forums and most trads are saying anuloma (higher caste man lower caste woman) is acceptable (not encouraged) as opposed to pratiloma (higher caste woman lower caste man) which is outright forbidden
How is this fair to lower castes? Shastras could have simply banned both anuloma and pratiloma
This is NOT a bait, DO NOT derail, mods please delete any kanging or abusing or bait replies
I want views of bhchcels who know on this topic
qvg/uF
No.301016
>>301012(OP)
This is NOT a bait, I want serious answers from high iq bhch cels
qvg/uF
No.301018
>>301012(OP)
Posted in b as this board gets faster replies and I dont have patience to post on pol or rta and wait one week for answer
MdaR/F
No.301020
>>301012(OP)
In manusmriti all inter caste marriage in banned, anuloma was rationalised later, but it is not practiced by the mainstream, nobody wants to marry chamarins, so you can relax.
qvg/uF
No.301023
>>301020
Yaar I saw trads using 3.12 manusmriti to justify it
I am not chamar but this thing just felt weirdly strange to me
iUfoH6
No.301024
>>301012(OP)
It's not meant to be fair, they're called the lower castes for a reason. They're inferior. Imagine being oppressed despite outnumbering your oppressor.
KPFh1t
No.301025
>>301012(OP)
This thread will cross 60 replies
1/Fl0+
No.301027
>>301012(OP)
ask why muslim men can marry christmas woman but not vice versa
qvg/uF
No.301033
>>301027
Muslims claim the Christian must convert first ,and any Muslim woman can marry Christian man provided he converts to Islam
This is what I have gathered by talking to them
Also, is the division between varnas like that of a muslim and a Christian?
MdaR/F
No.301034
>>301023
As I said they tried to rationalise it later, but no one in the mainstream actually practices, those trade are never marrying an LC woman
MdaR/F
No.301038
>>301031
caste system isn't some established gobarmint policy, it is natural, do you think its le fair that sun rises from east? poor and ugly sandas cleaners lie at the bottom of social ladder across the world.
v8Xhm7
No.301039
>>301012(OP)
It's fair because any child born of anuloma and pratiloma can marry lower caste, but also since Shudras don't have to worry about anuloma from the perspective of their being no caste technically lower than them.
This allows them to marry anyone outside their religion with close to no restrictions. As far as intercaste marriage goes, truth is that both are heavily quite forbidden, it is just that one is just significantly worse than other.
qvg/uF
No.301041
>>301031
I have been reading trad apologia to understand their views and they try to argue why it is fair
I can understand their rationality between all points like division of labor in society, guarantee of employment etc but this one thing i can't seem to understand how they justify no matter how much they try
I am asking this question genuinely as I am trying to understand hinduism and hindu varn vyavastha and how it was held in past
qvg/uF
No.301044
>>301039
>This allows them to marry anyone outside their religion with close to no restrictions.
Easier said than done and I have read trads claiming even that is forbidden from Shudra
Why will anyone even marry a Shudra man from outside the hindu religion even that is a question
MdaR/F
No.301045
>>301041
As I said earlier, justifying the practice or not is irrelevant, what matters is that it isn't encouraged and it isn't followed by the mainstream
qvg/uF
No.301047
>>301044
Also this feels even more humiliating to read, "go outside the tribe to find a wife"
g97WdQ
No.301050
>>301012(OP)
gaand me dele apni caste
qvg/uF
No.301051
>>301045
That is just coping out isn't it, by that logic even the Vedas become irrelevant
v8Xhm7
No.301054
>>301044
>Easier said than done and I have read trads claiming even that is forbidden from Shudra
That's just bullshit honestly, their is no such rule that limits Shudras from marrying outside their faith. It is true that Dwijas can't marry out their faith, but Shudras have freedom to marry anyone, even Mleccha, w white woman, east asian chink, a black woman, the restriction of samsakaram was never put on them, because Manu wanted them to integrate with everyone. It was partially why he wanted Shudras to migrated as much as possible, however that never happened.
>Why will anyone even marry a Shudra man from outside the hindu religion even that is a question
On the contrary, most interesting caste and the internet faith marriages are actually in Shudra Varnas. I don't know why you think people will be against this, but it's far more common that you think.
qvg/uF
No.301055
>>301024
That is not how hinduism seems to be in spirit, is the entire faith just about putting a hierarchy? That seems too shallow from what I infer by reading the epics
o4CJNR
No.301057
>>301041
Polygamy was a thing. Female foeticide was a thing, and men married 2 to 5 women across caste. Some even have side bitches while having sexless bedrooms. Men needed a justification for their horny urge to get aroused to women below their caste and also the skewered sex ratio among each layers of the caste.
qvg/uF
No.301063
>>301054
>It is true that Dwijas can't marry out their faith, but Shudras have freedom to marry anyone, even Mleccha, w white woman, east asian chink, a black woman, the restriction of samsakaram was never put on them, because Manu wanted them to integrate with everyone. It was partially why he wanted Shudras to migrated as much as possible, however that never happened.
Yaar this just sounds a huge cop out and there is no scriptural justification for your claims. Plus atleast to me telling shudra men to marry out feels a cope since even their lineage will be diluted and their kids will have problems with pind daan
Moreover this is easier said than done, I disagree to your claim that shudras marry out the most yaar most don't even have money to leave india
v8Xhm7
No.301064
>>301047
>"go outside the tribe to find a wife"
Hinduism simply isn't a tribe though. That itself is proven irrelevant time and time. UC form less than 30 % of total population, while Shudra and Dalit form close to 70%. That argument would only sustain if Shudra and LC were minority.
v8Xhm7
No.301071
>>301063
>Yaar this just sounds a huge cop out and there is no scriptural justification for your claims.
Their doesn't need to be, vivaha samskaram is only applicable to Dwija, this is reinforced from vedas to smiriti. Exclusion makes it pretty honest and obvious.
>Plus atleast to me telling shudra men to marry out feels a cope since even their lineage will be diluted
Shudras have no lineage, and if they marry into another Varna it would have been simply diluted regardless.
>and their kids will have problems with pind daan
Doesn't apply to Shudras.
>Moreover this is easier said than done, I disagree to your claim that shudras marry out the most yaar most don't even have money to leave india
On the contrary the larger majority of Indians who live in abroad are Shudras, because they are the one who migrated during the earlier stages. Again, it's simply a matter of statistical truth, the difference in numbers make it pretty clear that most interracial and interfaith marriages will be done by Shudras, due to higher numbers, same as their will always be more Hindu men marrying muslim women than their will ever be muslim men marrying hindu women.
9atsTc
No.301076
>>301012(OP)
systematically cucked lower caste's, kek
qvg/uF
No.301082
>>301071
>vivaha samskaram is only applicable to Dwija, this is reinforced from vedas to smiriti. Exclusion makes it pretty honest and obvious.
Any scriptural citation for this, genuinely curious
qvg/uF
No.301085
>>301071
>Doesn't apply to Shudras
I saw puri shankaracharya video where he said shudras will have problem with pind daan if they marry out
Do you have any scriptural citations for this
bqkqka
No.301090
qvg/uF
No.301100
>>301082
Bump
qvg/uF
No.301115
>>301071
>On the contrary the larger majority of Indians who live in abroad are Shudras, because they are the one who migrated during the earlier stages. Again, it's simply a matter of statistical truth, the difference in numbers make it pretty clear that most interracial and interfaith marriages will be done by Shudras, due to higher numbers, same as their will always be more Hindu men marrying muslim women than their will ever be muslim men marrying hindu women.
I think per capita it's lower for shudras
v8Xhm7
No.301120
>>301082
>Any scriptural citation for this, genuinely curious
> Manusmṛti 10.4
ब्राह्मणक्षत्रियविशां धर्माः सञ्ज्ञाय नित्यशः ।
शूद्रस्यापि तथैवोक्ताः स्वकर्मनियताः प्रभो ॥
>Manu 3.13–14
उपनयनं च विवाहो यज्ञानां चापि कर्मणाम् ।
नान्येषां विद्यते शूद्रस्य कर्म जन्मनः सुतः ॥
I don't understand how it is that people think the Shudras were given the worst end of the stick in our faith. If that was true the faith wouldn't have lasted as long as it even did. I could probably go through books and give more, and draw an entire pipeline in future for my conclusion.
Many people misunderstand these verses as if they are exclusion of rights. It's not, it's simply a lack of limitation upon Shudras. Again, it is not different from Manu asking Shudras to actually marry each other and migrate to location that they feel will help them prosper, only for the said Shudras to avoid marrying each other, and end up heavily genetically bottle necked instead.
Medhatithi even goes on to reinforce this, that the marriage of a Shudra is not a Samskaram, this is it not limited or guided by vedic rights of marrying in same Varna or prohibited against marrying those outside of Varna.
However I do not always agree with Medhatithi, because I place value of my understanding as a Brahmin over his, when it comes to Manu's work. I still agree with a lot of it. I will absolutely draw a hard line on, Shudra being only Varna that can, and should infact marry each other outside their region, and marry outside their faith as often as they can.
>>301085
Pind daan only becomes an issue if laws of the vaidik samskaram is violated. Since Shudras are meant to follow law of vyavharam rather than the samskaram, it doesn't apply on them, giving free reign to marry outside faith and race.
Still I am interested in shankaraya charya's said words. I don't always agree with him either and I would have debated him as well. Please provide me the link to his words of you saw it in a video while we are at it.
8JkRds
No.301148
>>301120
>I don't understand how it is that people think the Shudras were given the worst end of the stick in our faith. If that was true the faith wouldn't have lasted as long as it even did. I could probably go through books and give more, and draw an entire pipeline in future for my conclusion
Yaar this is not an argument. "How did it last" is not an argument
Your verses don't prove how shudras don't have Vivaha Samskaram
>Many people misunderstand these verses as if they are exclusion of rights. It's not, it's simply a lack of limitation upon Shudras. Again, it is not different from Manu asking Shudras to actually marry each other and migrate to location that they feel will help them prosper, only for the said Shudras to avoid marrying each other, and end up heavily genetically bottle necked instead.
I really don't see this.
All these 3 verses say is there are 3 dwijas and 1 non dwija and the classes they can marry within each other
>Medhatithi even goes on to reinforce this, that the marriage of a Shudra is not a Samskaram, this is it not limited or guided by vedic rights of marrying in same Varna or prohibited against marrying those outside of Varna.
Can you source it please
>still I am interested in shankaraya charya's said words. I don't always agree with him either and I would have debated him as well. Please provide me the link to his words of you saw it in a video while we are at it.
Give me one hour or max to max one day, I am out of home in bus so I will need to search for it
It was Puri shankaracharya video on Varna sankara and pind daan you can find it on yt
NltjQi
No.301171
VM80m+
No.301190
>>301012(OP)
Children from anuloma are also varnasankar, so it is heavily looked down upon. It was a later rationalisation, but as per Manusmriti, all inter-caste relations are considered wrong.
VD3Nsy
No.301199
>>301171
I was reading trad twitter and trying to understand their apologia /justifications for the Varna vyavastha
v8Xhm7
No.301203
>>301148
>Your verses don't prove how shudras don't have Vivaha Samskaram
?
>उपनयनं नाम संस्काराणाम् मूलम् ।
>तस्मिन्ननुपपन्ने न संस्काराः विद्यन्ते ॥
(Baudhāyana Dharmasūtra 1.2.3–4)
>ब्राह्मणस्योपनयनं अष्टमे वर्षे ।
>क्षत्रियस्य एकादशे ।
>वैश्यस्य द्वादशे ।
>शूद्रस्य न विद्यते ॥
(Gautama Dharmasūtra 8.14–17)
> उपनयित्वा द्विजातीनां त्रेतेऽह्नि विवाहयेत् ।
(Manusmṛti 2.169)
> उपनयनं च विवाहो यज्ञानां चापि कर्मणाम् ।
>नान्येषां विद्यते शूद्रस्य कर्म जन्मनः सुतः ॥
(Manusmṛti 3.13–14)
> मन्त्रेण विवाहो द्विजातीनां शूद्रस्यामन्त्रकः स्मृतः ।
>यत्र मन्त्रः स नित्यः स्याद् यत्र न स्यात् स लौकिकः ॥
(Parāśara Smṛti 8.11–12)
Since the Upanayana is the very gateway to all of the Saṁskaras (source Baudhāyana 1.2.3), only Dvijas receive Upanayana (by source Gautama of 8.14 to 17), and Vivaha is itself a Saṁskaram as following the said Upanayana (exactly rshi Manu 2.169)
it necessarily follows (as confirmed by rshi Manu 3.13–14 and thus later by rishi Medthatithi) that Vivāha Saṁskāra belongs only to Dvijas, not to Shudra. This giving them freedom to marry any one outside faith, since it is a Vyavharam and not samskaram. Again, notice this
मन्त्रेण विवाहो द्विजातीनां शूद्रस्यामन्त्रकः स्मृतः ।
यत्र मन्त्रः स नित्यः स्याद् यत्र न स्यात् स लौकिकः ॥
Parasara smriti backs it up further. This was a well known fact throughout the sub con untill the rise of bhakti movement. Which ironically led to mass death of the native and local tradition of all Shudra families when bhakti movement took a big hold and became mainstream. I don't know how much simpler I could make it, but this is the truth at its purest.
The best thing a Shudra can do in terms of one marrying is marry an Upper Caste muslim girl, or a Christian girl. If a Shudra makes it abroad he is on his way to greatness by marrying a white girl and spread his lineage. Shudras are meant to marry Muslims, Christians, Dalits, absorb them all, spread across the world.
VD3Nsy
No.301204
>>301203
Yaar but marrying interracial itself causes problems in progeny isn't it
The only option I can truly see is indian muslims and Christians for shudras
MdaR/F
No.301206
MdaR/F
No.301207
VD3Nsy
No.301209
v8Xhm7
No.301210
>>301148
>All these 3 verses say is there are 3 dwijas and 1 non dwija and the classes they can marry within each other
? That's not what the verses say, I don't see how that is what you translated it to. You clearly have struggles with reading sanskrit and devnagri. If it needs to be clarified further, making this thread a bait.
>>301148
>Can you source it please
Sure, pick up the Book Manubhasya if possible, it should back up my words. It is just the earliest source of literal and most orthodox commentary of Medhatithi on Manusmriti.
It's as simple as Vivaha Samskar having limited to those who have Upanayana, if Shudras don't have Upanayana it is only normal they don't have to follow Vivaha Samskaram. It's mostly simple conclusion.
>>301148
>It was Puri shankaracharya video on Varna sankara and pind daan you can find it on yt
I understand why he would want Shudras to not marry Dwija, but I don't see why he would claim they can not marry Muslims, christians and the dalits, or the timmies out there. Regardless, take your time, no worries.
v8Xhm7
No.301214
>>301204
>The only option I can truly see is indian muslims and Christians for shudras
Haan toh sahi toh hai, ye toh based hai. Shudras are Chads, they clash with Muzzies and take all of their dotters.
>>301206
>>we wuz le marry gorimem and pooslimah
>yaar
<Picrel
Muslim randiyo ka toh rehne hi doh, everyone knows Shudras are railing them day and night. I don't want to doxx anyone, bina wajah mullo ki laal ho jayegi share karne laga toh.
>>301207
Point and case, but also the source of the issue, Shudra have a huge bottle neck, Dalits have a huge generic bottle neck as well. I never get why, because the point of marriage within community was to preserve certain traits. Shudras decided to take it a step further and land lock their own gene pool. Their was no religious sentiment to this, it was just stupid.
Shudras should try to marry each other and try to marry people outside their own region within the same Varna or women of different faith. Naturally a Shudra woman should not be allowed to marry outside Hindu faiths, but Shudra men should marry muslim girls, christian girls and if possible foreigners as much as possible.
v8Xhm7
No.301218
>>301214
>Inb4 this thread turns into shitfest because this Shudra married a gorimem
Sharam karlo chvtiyo, have some dignity, kya hi dikkat hai agar Shudra shadi kare gori Mem aur muzzies se? Based hai ye. More like this, jo bhi Shudra muslim bandi se shadi karega, usko agle janam me pakka Dwija sthithi milegi 
>Source
Aryanon Smriti Bhachan Chronicles 7.8.6 (this is a meme, don't take this one seriously)
6Tg+FE
No.301222
>>301012(OP)
> higher caste man lower caste woman) is acceptable (not encouraged)
If a brahmin man marries a chamar women and their children eventually become brahmin and their children then marry in the same caste(brahmin) or any other UC , this will change the whole dna of a particular caste that intervaste marriages even between a Uc man and a Lc woman were prohibited.
v8Xhm7
No.301232
>>301222
This. This became a prominent reason for why other Brahmins refused to marry the Bengali Brahmins as they are so mixed they are simply Varna Sankar. Social acceptance of the Varna Sankar is even rarer than acceptance of all the Avarnias.
They are subjected to great shame, regardless of Anuloma or Pratiloma. The entire thing is also based on idea that sometimes the child, even if both parents are Dwija, fails to inherit the good traits of either of them and only gets worse traits from both sides.
VD3Nsy
No.301234
>>301232
>This became a prominent reason for why other Brahmins refused to marry the Bengali Brahmins as they are so mixed they are simply Varna Sankar.
They are just jealous of Tagore like black bengali brahmins mogging them
v8Xhm7
No.301235
>>301222
At the same time, i wonder if Manu wanted the Shudras to marry all the Muslims, and women of other faith and that is why he didn't force them all to have Vivaha Samskaram. Maybe we all just failed to see his vision. Maybe he simply wanted them to raise their steppe and upgrade all of their said genes as well.
v8Xhm7
No.301239
>>301234
Tagore mogs 90% of Brahmin of India kek. I still am not fond of how liberalised majority of these modern Bengali Brahmins are, same goes for a few north west Brahmins as well nowdays, who are more busy acting like Jaats. Not that I have anything against Jaats, but it simply doesn't feel like a good look on Bamans.
H5cseb
No.301263
>>301012(OP)
>Oh no this opressive system tht led to the stagnation of Indian society has another stupid custom
What's shocking in it?
H5cseb
No.301266
>>301012(OP)
I will recommend Risley's ppl of India if you wanna understand this system.
H5cseb
No.301271
>>301041
>one thing i can't seem to understand how they justify no matter how much they try
Because they don't. Do you justify the feudal lords taking a peasent women for sex sux in middle ages Europe? Prolly no cause there is no. Today too, zomato ceo could very easily just sweep in and take your crush as his gf and she won't say no and you wouldn't be able to do anything. Life isn't fair what of it?
2qLx0O
No.301278
>>301271
>take your crush as his gf and she won't say no
idk about your crushes but mine aren't gold-diggers
v8Xhm7
No.301300
>>301278
KPFh1t
No.301303
>>301025
About to
v8Xhm7
No.301307
>>301271
Hate to really admit but their is definitely some essense of truth, although that is a different things entirely and it simply can't be conflated with core beliefs of a religion.
I still do not get even if the Varna vyavastha was true and all the Varnas were asked to not marry each other, why did Shudras stop marrying other Shudras. It never made sense to me, the Shudras basically have highest tendency to marry their own distant cousins, and exceptionally frequent in south, even higher in Mahar rastra.
Their were so many Dalits, Tribals, Muslims and Christians they could have married instead, but even more importantly, they could have married each other from different regions. You can even see how a lot of them in north west had the tradition to not marry within same village, but it seems to be been lost in rest of Jeetland.
Shudras misunderstood the point of marrying in community almost entirely.
